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Author Topic: guity's gpr-s experience  (Read 42091 times)

guity

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Cold and voltage sag
« Reply #150 on: January 08, 2010, 07:58:09 AM »

Wow newsflash for guity.  Found this thread in the DIY electric car forum:  http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/thundersky-lifepo4-real-world-experience-thread-24433p12.html . It starts with post #114 where this guy is complaining that he has had cells go bad and increasing voltage sag on all his cells.  As more posters start chiming in, it becomes apparent that colder temps have a heavy effect on Thundersky voltage sag.  at 77 degrees Fahrenheit, minimum voltage for the batteries is 2.5 volts, as everyone has always said.  But at -31 Fahrenheit, the minimum voltage is 1.5 volts .  So to some extent, some portion the sag I am experiencing is due to colder temps.
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guity

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Re: guity's gpr-s experience
« Reply #151 on: January 11, 2010, 04:04:05 AM »

Replaced the fat stinky battery yesterday (took 3 or 4 hours this time instead of 3 or 4 days).   Drove the bike to the hardware store this morning, which is slightly farther than work.  Drove back home and made it up the hill at 45 mph the whole way with no problem.  I had driven 21 miles, used about 28 amp hours, and the final resting voltage was 78.5 volts.  The voltage never seemed to sag badly today -- perhaps because it was one of those sunny January days that are even warm by Los Angeles standards.  Immediately took off the seat and the fake gas tank to measure voltages.  The batteries were ranging from 3.21 to 3.27 excapt battery #18, which had dropped to 3.09.  

I put the single-cell charger on battery #18, went to the store, and when I got back about 45 minutes later, all the batteries (including 18) had settled to a straight 3.3 volts.  I guess these Thundersky (and perhaps all battery) packs are like ice cube containers of water so the juice tends to just slosh around between cells until they all have the same amount.  I have to check individual voltages as soon as I finish with a ride in order to actually see what cells are having trouble keeping up...

These stats from yesterday aren't wildly different from any of the post-battery-damage stats, however...
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guity

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Significant improvement from replacing leaky battery
« Reply #152 on: January 13, 2010, 01:38:14 AM »

After replacing the fat stinky battery which had been next door to one of the dead batteries, the bike is definitely improved, though not quite as strong as when I originally received it.

The cycle analyst showed the bike going 58 mph on the PCH today, which I believe translates to 60 mph.  (Cycle Analyst speedometer shows 43 mph when driving behind my wife who is going 45 mph.)  Bike made it to work yesterday and back using 24 amp hours, and only briefly was unable to maintain 45 mph (at the peak of the hill where the speed limit is 35 mph anyway).  The sag was down to 59 instead of 55 volts.  Before batteries were damaged, sag during a commute typically got down to 65 volts.  So there are 6 volts to account for, as well as at least another 3 volts because there are now 24 batteries instead of 23.  A total of 9 volts of extra sag that are probably the result of some combination of weakened batteries and lowered temperatures.

For now the plan is to strip off the seat and gas tank each day as soon as I get home from work  and record individual battery voltages immediately, then put the batteries on the general 90 volt charger and when it is done charging, to again record all the individual battery voltages.  See if I can spot a potential problem cell...
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guity

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Conflicting Stats
« Reply #153 on: January 13, 2010, 10:42:09 AM »

Looking at the stats, one would think the bike took a step backward today.  The bike was driven a bit faster and harder, but the temperature outside felt colder as well.  Nowhere near as cold as a month and a half ago, but seemed colder than last night...

The spread sheet has been changed slightly to use a two sheets -- one for recording cycle analyst stas, the second for recording individual battery voltages.  If there are two voltage recordings on the same day then the smaller voltages are taken just after riding the bike, while the larger voltage amounts are taken just after charging the bike...
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guity

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Plan D?
« Reply #154 on: January 14, 2010, 12:03:09 PM »

OK the stats don't look like they are going to rat out the bad batteries.  By the time I get the bike into the garage and check the voltages, everything looks fine.  But something is happening near the top of the hill that is causing a significant loss in power and and a huge sag in pack voltage.  Some of this sag and power loss hould be rectified by warmer temperatures, but I get the feeling most of it is because some number of batteries is screwed up. 

The plan now is to buy one of these: http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9282&Product_Name=Cell-Log_Cell_Voltage_Monitor_2-8S_Lipo .  For some reason they don't sell anything to help you connect these to your batteries, so it will also require these: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=455-2261-1-ND and these: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=455-2217-ND

This device should allow me to monitor 8 batteries at a time, logging their voltage levels to a file two times per second as I am driving the GPR-S.  At that point when the voltage sags, hopefully this device will be able to show which batteries are sagging first.  Hopefully this is a small number of batteries and not all 20 of the batteries that are, at present, not basically new...


Anyway, theoretically, after testing with 3 commutes (three sags), with the device on a different set of 8 cells each time, I will have a better idea of what exactly is sapping the bike's strength.
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guity

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Preparing for the cell logger
« Reply #155 on: January 24, 2010, 12:38:25 PM »

I didn't understand how small this stuff was going to be.  I couldn't find wires small enough for this plastic plug and wire-holder at the hardware store.  My neighbor, who works with remote control cars and planes gave me some wire.  One picture shows the assembled plug that should plug into the cell logger when it arrives.  The ends of the wires will be screwed into the back ends of Picasso's euro-style terminal strips.  In theory the wires will be long enough so that the plugs can be pulled out through the fake gas tank hole, the cell logger can be attached, and 8 batteries can be assessed for voltage simulataneously.  Most importantly the cell logger should be able to record voltages of the 8 batteries twice a second and place the data in a log file that will span 36-hours of use.  (All I will need is about 45 minutes of recorded data.)

The little metal wire holders were intimidating at first, partly because I don't see close-up stuff that well and these things are small.  But the bottom part of the metal holder is to be crimped onto the rubber sheath of the wire to hold it in place.  The top of the wire holder has a tiny little metal protrusion out the back that matches up with an extra bit of space at the top of each hole in the plug.  When the metal wire-holder is pushed up into the plastic plug hole properly, that protrusion will hook into something deep in the interior of the plastic plug hole and the wire/wire-holder won't come back out of the plug hole without a good bit of effort.
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guity

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Preparing for the cell logger additinal pic
« Reply #156 on: January 24, 2010, 12:46:07 PM »

Additional pic showing assembled plug that should fit directly into cell logger.  Back ends of wires should fit ok in Picasso's euro-style terminal strips...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 10:14:53 PM by guity »
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guity

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Cell logger ups and downs
« Reply #157 on: February 04, 2010, 06:12:38 AM »

The cell logger arrived from HobbyKing last Thursday and there ensued a kind of rollercoaster weekend that went from the despair of feeling like I'd never figure out how to wire it in to the euphoria of getting it wired and watching it display 8 cell voltages for each of the 3 plugs I put into it into, back to the despair of accidentally subjecting it to 60 volts of juice while trying to organize and straighten out the wiring, to some short-lived joy when it seemed to work again in some kind of limited fashion, then finally ending in despair when it actually started smoking during one test and the screen went dark and never came back again.

Probably at least 10 hours were lost simply because my personal system of enumerating batteries was opposite of the standard way.  For some reason I have always just called the first battery off of the positive terminal battery 1, and the last battery, connected to the negative terminal was 24 to me.  So when I tried to follow the cell logger wiring diagram, and connect the negative terminal from cell 1 and the positive terminal from cell 1, as well and the positive terminals of the next 7 cells in sequence, the cell logger wouldn't even power up.  At that point I got lost in a sea of confusion that arose from the fact that i wasn't sure if even the little plugs I had constructed were even functional.  Or since I know squat about wiring diagrams I had to question whether I had at all correctly interpreted the one provided with the cell logger.  or even, did the makers of the cell logger provide a bad diagram (it's coming from China, and the English documentation is terse and often vague and lacks in detail)?

But really the whole thing might have been ABC if I had just understood that battery 1 is connected to the negative terminal, and battery 24 is connected to the positive terminal, and what I really had been doing was connecting batteries 24-17 to the cell logger instead of 1-8.  (The cell logger needs to have the first pin of its plug connected into the negative terminal of the first battery of a series, so I was plugging the first pin of the plug into the negative terminal of cell 24 instead of cell 17 in order to get the readings on those 8 cells.)

At any rate, after these mis-steps, all the batteries were displaying on the cell logger around 9 PM Saturday evening, and I left off for the day ecstatic about that.  But the next morning, when I woke up, I realized there were these dinky little 24 gauge wires stringing all over the place.  In order to organize them better, I had to string some more 14-gauge wire between some of the cells and the euro-style strips so that, any one plug coming from the cell logger could get all the info it needed by sending the little 24-gauge wires out to just one euro style strip at a time for each of the 3 -8cell series of batteries.

The good thing about this is that no battery trays had to be removed -- I didn't need any more 14-gauge wires from the bottom 6-pack of batteries, and the other 18 could be accessed by just removing a metal retaining strip and the charger and a couple of plastic covers from over the tops of the battery cases.  Once i did that, I first removed the positive terminal cable that connects to the positive terminal on what I originally thought of as the "first" battery of the pack.  I made a huge mistake at that point without thinking very hard about it.  There were actually 2 or 3 cables connected to that battery's positive terminal, and I removed all of them and carefully covered them with electrical tape. 

The problem was that one of the wires was one of my 14-gauge voltage testing wires that went led to the euro-style terminal strips.  So instead of interrupting the current completely, I was just re-directing it into some kind of convoluted wiring system that had 60 volts flowing through it instead of the preferred 0, or the full 90.  But the cell logger is only set up to handle 43 volts, so when I hooked it in for a brief test, it made a quick nasty snap sound and went dead for a while.  From then on it just showed a "cell voltage error" every time I tried to hook it up, even when I hooked it up to the other plugs that had worked just a minute before.

The cell logger never really seemed the same after that.  Even when I powered it up off my computer and navigated the menu system a little bit, it uncharacteristically just blacked out on me after a couple of minutes.  Then like I said, during some further testing later on, after I had actually got it to show the voltages of 6 cells out of an 8 cell series, the next time I hooked it up smoke just started pouring out, the screen went black, and it was dead.

I spent a long time after that going over every wire again and again and re-wiring mistakes and checking voltages, and I now think I have all the plugs ready to go, hooked into the euro-style terminal strips, but I have to wait for another cell logger to arrive from HobbyKing.  And this time they are back ordered, so who knows how long it will take to get the next one?  But I gotta say, it is cool as hell to get the voltages of all 24 batteries by just plugging the little bugger into 3 different plugs, and it will be cooler still if/when I can get it to record the cell voltages twice a second while I am riding the bike full throttle up the long steep hill...
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EVmc

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Re: Cell logger ups and downs
« Reply #158 on: February 06, 2010, 12:09:07 AM »

Hey i did the same thing on Packtracker !
now I number batteries most neg is number 1
I had also numbered most pos as number 1
to hook up first one i had to finally clean numbers off and renumber
i would get mixed up in middle of pack
man too bad to smoke got out of your monitor
does one unit monitor all 24 cells?
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EVmc

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Re: Cold and voltage sag
« Reply #159 on: February 06, 2010, 12:50:38 AM »

Wow newsflash for guity.  Found this thread in the DIY electric car forum:  http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/thundersky-lifepo4-real-world-experience-thread-24433p12.html . It starts with post #114 where this guy is complaining that he has had cells go bad and increasing voltage sag on all his cells.  As more posters start chiming in, it becomes apparent that colder temps have a heavy effect on Thundersky voltage sag.  at 77 degrees Fahrenheit, minimum voltage for the batteries is 2.5 volts, as everyone has always said.  But at -31 Fahrenheit, the minimum voltage is 1.5 volts .  So to some extent, some portion the sag I am experiencing is due to colder temps.
we are driving the Ranchero this winter the batteries are heated to 80 deg
in the late morning its  34 deg outside
but lions are 80 deg no sag  and
now  34 deg air cooling motor, no cutback and lions heated can go up hill at 55 mph easy
in summer  100 deg outside, going up deadwood peak about 700 foot climb in less than 2 miles
could only go 45 mph because controller has a motor temperature cutback,


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guity

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Re: Cell logger ups and downs
« Reply #160 on: February 06, 2010, 01:08:57 AM »

Hey i did the same thing on Packtracker !
now I number batteries most neg is number 1
I had also numbered most pos as number 1
to hook up first one i had to finally clean numbers off and renumber
i would get mixed up in middle of pack
man too bad to smoke got out of your monitor
does one unit monitor all 24 cells?

Gees, that makes me feel a heck of a lot better!  Not only am I not the only person to make that mistake, but even smart guys make that mistake!  I mean it kind of makes sense, doesn't it? -- start the numbering from the positive side?

Anyway, there is a lot of talk on Endless Sphere from the cell logger maker, saying he might even make a new celllogger that monitors 45 cells at the same time, but so far I have only seen the 8-cell monitor.  Since you can just plug it in back and forth between the 3 bunches of 8 cells in just a second, I am wondering if it would be worth it to buy 3 of these cell loggers ($35 apiece after shipping is factored in) so I wouldn't even have to switch from plug to plug in order to see all the voltages....
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picasso

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Re: guity's gpr-s experience
« Reply #161 on: February 06, 2010, 03:05:34 PM »

Just save the cash and pony up for a good BMS.
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guity

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Re: guity's gpr-s experience
« Reply #162 on: February 09, 2010, 02:14:15 AM »

Just save the cash and pony up for a good BMS.

OK Picasso, but here's the deal:  Aren't I going to have to get a fairly sophisticated BMS in order to get it to provide me the inside info on which cells are acting up?  And what  happens when I dump my Etek motor and replace it with a hub motor and fill up its space with about 8 more batteries, and replace the controller?  Aren't I going to have to buy another expensive BMS?

Yesterday I had a weird experience.  Drove about 16.5 miles to a friend's house for his annual SuperBowl party, and plugged it into an outlet he had on the outside of his house under a kitchen window.  I heard the charger go on.  And about 6 or 7 hours later, when I got back to the bike, the charger was off.  usually this means everything got charged up to 90 volts.  But when I turned the bike on, Cycle Analyst showed 79 volts, which is basically what it would have been if the bike hadn't been charged at all.  So this turned into a 33 mile trip, which ate up a total of 52 amp hours even though I went up the final hill at around 35 mph.  The cycle analyst showed an end voltage of something slightly more than 77 volts.  The min had gotten down below 55 volts, which would be less than 2.3 volts per cell. 

My memory was that this was much worse performance than the bike would have gotten just after I purchased it.  So I checked out some of the cycle analyst stats.  Just after I received the bike I drove it 36 miles on September 18 using 52 amp hours, and drove it 33 miles on September 20 using 44 amp hours, so maybe current performance isn't really as deteriorated as I have been making it out to be.  The biggest difference is in the voltage sag I am getting which is like over 20 volts now as opposed to around 10 volts when I first got the bike.  And certainly a good deal of the sag has to be attributable to lower temps.

Anyhow, received a message from HobbyKing that the new cell logger is on its way -- just wait Picasso, when I get that thing hooked on correctly you are going to fall in love with it!
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guity

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Chain problems
« Reply #163 on: February 11, 2010, 01:37:52 AM »

The chain started making noises that became louder and louder until I think I actually got to the point where instead of feeling that magic carpet gliding feeling as the bike moved forward, I was kind of cringing at the grating sounds.  I thought this was all a result of the chain getting too loose, so I spent some time tightening it a couple weeks ago.  But after tightening the chain, the noise because worse, if anything.  It got so loud I started worrying about safety.

The other night I took the left side fairing off so i could try to get a better view of the chain as i rolled the bike around.  That was when i realized that the red coloring on the chain wasn't just decorative -- it was rust.  It had actually rusted so bad that at least one section of the chain was unable to straighten.  It had this kind of crimp in it and the links were so set in place by the rust that I couldn't force them to straighten out (and apparently the bike couldn't either when it ran the chain over the sprockets).

So I broke out the WD-40 and smothered the entire chain with it, got the links all straightened out, and put in an order at Bike Bandit for some Maxima Chain Lube (wax).  Now when I ride the bike it might be even quieter than when I originally bought it.  However, I'm sure there is WD-40 spattered all over the place inside the fairing.  No biggie, well worth the mess to have that magic carpet feeling back again...

Still awaiting the new cell logger.
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skadamo

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Re: guity's gpr-s experience
« Reply #164 on: February 11, 2010, 10:58:09 PM »

Is it an o-ring chain? Ive heard of people taking the chain off an soaking it in a bath of oil for a while. You would probably end up with a mess but might help keep the chain moving nicely long term? Might also attract dirt. Just an idea.
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