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Author Topic: Range experimentation  (Read 5986 times)

markmaxwell

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2016, 07:26:32 AM »

When I ran it down to 0% (according to the dash display) I plugged in to my level 2 charger, and I think it was fully charged in less than 3 hours, but I did not check it during the process.
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2016 Zero DS 13.0 kwh
Only dogs hear me riding, and I like it that way.

ctrlburn

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2016, 10:23:39 AM »

VIN: 538SD9Z21GCB0****

well.. the "D9" codes to "13.0"
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oobflyer

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2016, 11:23:09 AM »

I had a similar experience with my 2012 Zero ZF9. I was puzzled by the range claims made here on forum, because I was getting about half of what others seemed to be ge getting.
Zero was kind enough to thoroughly check out the bike, but found nothing wrong.

The answer?

I ride year round - most folks only ride in warmer weather, but the battery chemistry that Zero uses is the most sensitive to cold weather of all of the available li-ion batteries out there. It makes sense that they use that chemistry, as it is more energy dense and works well in the warm weather when most people ride, but if you ride when the temperatures are near, or below freezing like I do - you'll see a significant drop in range.

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2021 Energica Ribelle, 2015 Zero SR, 2012 Zero ZF9, 2007 Vectrix VX-1 Li+, 2012 Nissan Leaf, 2018 Nissan Leaf, 2020 Nissan Leaf, 2018 Tesla Model 3, 2023 Tesla Model Y

NEW2elec

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2016, 11:37:36 AM »

Mark get a Kill-a-Watt wall meter it will show you how much of a charge your getting.
They are about $20 at Walmart or Home Depot.
If your bike shows 0 battery left and you only charge up 9kW to full than something isn't right.
Your bike may not be set up for the 13kwh battery on the gauge but you may have  that much range.
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markmaxwell

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2016, 12:37:24 PM »

Thanks oobflyer. It has only been warm where and when I have been riding 65 - 95 degrees Fahrenheit.

NEW2electric, I did not know that such a meter was available. It will help my investigation.
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2016 Zero DS 13.0 kwh
Only dogs hear me riding, and I like it that way.

Electric Terry

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2016, 01:43:34 PM »

Mark get a Kill-a-Watt wall meter it will show you how much of a charge your getting.
They are about $20 at Walmart or Home Depot.
If your bike shows 0 battery left and you only charge up 9kW to full than something isn't right.
Your bike may not be set up for the 13kwh battery on the gauge but you may have  that much range.

Yes, that is a great idea.  My initial guess is that you aren't riding in a tuck position and aren't as light a rider as the tests were done with.  Just riding upright at highway speeds could be the reason for your range.  If you need to go far on the highway, make sure to tuck and lay so your chest is on the tank and you will see your highway range improve.

But to test exactly empty to full capacity, run the bike down to 88-90 volts resting, you can see this through the app.  Then plug the Kill A watt into the wall, reset it, and plug in the charging cord.   The next day see what the kWh number says.  The actual capacity plus the charger losses should equal the nominal rating used by the battery industry.  So for instance if it shows about 13 kWh that is probably 11.5 of battery and 1.5 of charger heat.  But anything over 9.8 will prove it's not the 3 brick.

The other way would be with an IR camera like a FLIR.  Run the bike hard on the highway, charge fast, and then repeat a few times, and check battery temp with the display and try to get it as close to 50C or 120F as possible and then view the bike from the side.   If the battery looks uniform as a square, it is a 4 brick 13.0.

I'm 99.99% confident you have a 13.0, but try one of the things recommended and let us know what you find out.  I will not rule out that humans could have made a mistake labeling the battery or programming something, I just find it highly unlikely. Remember also the bike will go for quite a long distance after 0%, although the bike will cut back power as the voltage sag tells the controller to limit power output.  But I've gone almost 20 miles at slow speed after hitting 0%.  It's nice to have a built in reserve so that if you are intending to charge somewhere, and get there, and something is wrong and have to go somewhere else, that at least you can get there going slowly.  If the bike was able to use every bit of energy at 80 mph, I might use it all being to confident about charging, only to get there and the charge station is blocked or broken or in use.  Meaning if it lets me use it going fast, I probably will.  So unless you spend quite some time travelling slower, I doubt you used all the energy in the battery.  What was the voltage of your last run to "empty"?  I'll bet it was 98 volts or higher.  But let us know.
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Doug S

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2016, 08:20:19 PM »

...but if you ride when the temperatures are near, or below freezing like I do - you'll see a significant drop in range.

That hasn't been my experience. I ride year-round, too, and though it doesn't get TOO cold here in the San Diego area, I've ridden to work with frost on the ground. There is a definite drop in range, but it's nowhere near half. Instead of getting home in the evening with 38-40% charge left, in the winter I'll get home with maybe 32-36% charge left.

I wonder, did they change chemistries between your 2012 and my 2014?

Quote
I will not rule out that humans could have made a mistake labeling the battery or programming something, I just find it highly unlikely.

I'd have to agree, that seems like a very big mistake, and something that would be caught before it left the factory. But in my experience as an EE, the thing that always seems to fail are the connectors. I'm sure they don't use "connectors" per se in the monolith, but I'm wondering if somehow the interconnection has failed on one of the paralleled bricks?
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There's no better alarm clock than sunlight on asphalt.

Richard230

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2016, 09:18:40 PM »

I don't know about chemistries, but they did change battery manufacturers between 2012 and 2103.  The 2012 bikes used EIG batteries and the later bikes use Farsis  (is that the right spelling?) cells. I once rode my 2012 S ZF9 100 miles on a single charge, but much of that was around 40 mph.

I think Terry is right about using the Kill-A-Watt meter. Also, what does your app say about the battery charge capacity when it is fully charged?  My 2014 S, with Power Tank, consistently shows 13.34 kWh when fully charged and its battery pack is rated at 14.2 kWh.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

KrazyEd

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2016, 08:12:36 AM »

I have been using the Kill A Watt meters for years. My complaint with them is that they don't seem to last very long.
Screen seems to go out much too quickly. I have had better luck with a Watts UP. Same idea, but, seems to be
higher quality. More money as well, but, if I am buying 3 Kill a Watt meters to one Watts UP, it works out to be less.
Quick look on Amazon shows the entry level Kill a Watt P4400 for as little as $18 delivered ( to U.S. ).
I believe that a new Watts up entry level meter is around $100 so FIVE Kill a Watt meters to one Watts UP
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 08:22:19 AM by KrazyEd »
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Kocho

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2016, 08:56:35 AM »

Pretty happy with my Killawatt  meter, been using it for maybe 4 years now. I watched a tear-down and use video that was quite positive about its build quality and ability to work without issues at and even above its max. rated current. Forgot which model I have, but it's been pretty useful for me.
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'15 Zero SR

KrazyEd

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2016, 10:11:39 AM »

I use them around the house, not much currant, mostly just to monitor light use. I have probably gone through over a dozen
in the last 10 years or so. I usually use the higher end P4480 model. Maybe that's the problem.  I think that my longest lasting
unit is one of the cheaper ones.
Here is their website.

http://www.p3international.com/products/energy-savers.html
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Kocho

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2016, 06:34:40 PM »

Mine is the 4460.01, FYI. I've been charging my two Vectrix scooters for 2-3 years through it, and the SR a few times, so it's seen some good currents many times. So far so good. Can't say the same for my timer, which apparently died from just sitting unused this year...
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'15 Zero SR

evdjerome

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2016, 08:22:00 PM »

I did a "range test" a couple weekends ago on my 2015 DS 12.5. A cold front came in between my rides.

Ride 1 - 124.5 miles, 4% remaining, average speed 40 mph, average ambient was around 80 F

Ride 2 - 128 miles, 0% remaining, average speed 40 mph, average ambient was around 65 F

These were one-way rides. Ride 1 was from home to a farmhouse with some elevation loss. Ride 2 was back home a couple days later, some elevation gain.

I was pleased with the range. Bike has 10,500 mi on odometer.
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2015 Zero DS 14.4 (originally 12.5)
2012 Zero DS 9 (sold)

MajorMajor

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2016, 09:00:39 PM »

How does weight affect range?

If my bike was twice the weight (with rider) would the range be half?
Or is the wind resistance a much bigger factor?
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Richard230

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Re: Range experimentation
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2016, 09:03:15 PM »

How does weight affect range?

If my bike was twice the weight (with rider) would the range be half?
Or is the wind resistance a much bigger factor?

Wind resistance is a much bigger factor than weight.

Just ask Terry. 
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.
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