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Author Topic: Odd charging behavior since the last software update  (Read 4170 times)

JaimeC

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2018, 02:05:24 AM »
I can't say if I've suffered any performance degradation.  It still feels as snappy as ever.
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Skidz

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2018, 03:58:38 PM »
Well, this is rich. They not only removed the kWh reading in the app but also the Ah reading, so now we have no way to determine the state of the battery other than the voltage. And although I admit the voltage is the way to go when determining charge state, i was also able to predict the voltage curve a bit when hypermiling using the kWh/Ah reading... This sucks.
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Richard230

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2018, 08:58:23 PM »
Quote from: Skidz on February 23, 2018, 03:58:38 PM
Well, this is rich. They not only removed the kWh reading in the app but also the Ah reading, so now we have no way to determine the state of the battery other than the voltage. And although I admit the voltage is the way to go when determining charge state, i was also able to predict the voltage curve a bit when hypermiling using the kWh/Ah reading... This sucks.

Perhaps Zero no longer wants their customers to notice (using my 2018 Zero S, with PT, as an example) that the advertised 16.6 kWh battery capacity shrinks to a fully-charged 15.138 kWh, when shown on the app.  ::)

Or, maybe the latest updated app is attempting to address (although I can't think of what that might be) the 2018 models and is not playing well with the older Zeros?   ??? 

Maybe the revised app is finally going to let us update our firmware on the 2018 and 2017 models at home as Zero advertises?  Now that would be something that I would chance an app update for.  ;)
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Doug S

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2018, 10:52:09 PM »
Quote from: Richard230 on February 23, 2018, 08:58:23 PM
Zero no longer wants their customers to notice (using my 2018 Zero S, with PT, as an example) that the advertised 16.6 kWh battery capacity shrinks to a fully-charged 15.138 kWh, when shown on the app.

This is strictly marketing doing what it does. An 80W solar panel might give you 60W at its best, because they multiply the open-cell voltage by the short-circuit current to obtain "working power", in spite of the fact it can't come anywhere near doing both at the same time. And can you guess how much storage is available on a "4 terabyte" hard drive? Hint: It ain't 4 terabytes.
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JaimeC

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2018, 11:32:51 PM »
Quote from: Doug S on February 23, 2018, 10:52:09 PM
Quote from: Richard230 on February 23, 2018, 08:58:23 PM
Zero no longer wants their customers to notice (using my 2018 Zero S, with PT, as an example) that the advertised 16.6 kWh battery capacity shrinks to a fully-charged 15.138 kWh, when shown on the app.

This is strictly marketing doing what it does. An 80W solar panel might give you 60W at its best, because they multiply the open-cell voltage by the short-circuit current to obtain "working power", in spite of the fact it can't come anywhere near doing both at the same time. And can you guess how much storage is available on a "4 terabyte" hard drive? Hint: It ain't 4 terabytes.

4TB "unformatted."  Once you format it, you have less.  Also depends on how you calculate 4TB.  To us data professionals, 1K = 1024 bytes, 1M = 1024K, 1Gb = 1024 M, etc. etc. etc.

Marketing people, on the other hand, use "1000" because it makes the numbers look BIGGER on paper.  But then again, motorcycle manufacturers do the same thing.  They'll advertise HP measured at the crank, not at the rear wheel where it really matters.
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dukecola

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2018, 04:13:43 AM »
Quote from: Richard230 on February 23, 2018, 08:58:23 PM
Quote from: Skidz on February 23, 2018, 03:58:38 PM
Well, this is rich. They not only removed the kWh reading in the app but also the Ah reading, so now we have no way to determine the state of the battery other than the voltage. And although I admit the voltage is the way to go when determining charge state, i was also able to predict the voltage curve a bit when hypermiling using the kWh/Ah reading... This sucks.

Perhaps Zero no longer wants their customers to notice (using my 2018 Zero S, with PT, as an example) that the advertised 16.6 kWh battery capacity shrinks to a fully-charged 15.138 kWh, when shown on the app.  ::)


My 13.0 w/2.8PT reads 14.1kwh after last update. Unfortunately I never even checked to see what it had been before the update.
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Doug S

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2018, 04:47:13 AM »
Quote from: JaimeC on February 23, 2018, 11:32:51 PM
Marketing people, on the other hand, use "1000" because it makes the numbers look BIGGER on paper.  But then again, motorcycle manufacturers do the same thing.  They'll advertise HP measured at the crank, not at the rear wheel where it really matters.

Exactly what I was saying. That's what marketing departments do at ALL companies, in ALL industries, not just Zero. In reality, you pretty much have to follow the industry practice, even if it is delusional -- if you rate your battery pack (or solar panel, or hard drive capacity, etc. etc.) honestly, you'll look bad next to the competition with their shady marketing hype.  Even if their hard drive is exactly the same size as yours, their "4TB" drive will look better than your "3.638TB" drive. Honesty doesn't pay in the marketing biz.
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BamBam

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2018, 05:08:52 AM »
I had an FXS for about 9 months before some idiot slid on some ice and totaled it for me. I took delivery of a new 2017 DSR limited edition a few weeks. I read about these firmware upgrade issues and specifically told my dealer not to update the firmware when it came in. I have no idea what versions came from the factory.

My question is once a newer firmware version is loaded is there no way to revert back to an older version if we don't like the changes the newer version has made. It seems to me that that should be a pretty easy thing to do as long as the dealer still has the older version loaded in whatever tool they use to upload the firmware.
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2017 Zero DSR Limited Edition (original owner, running)
2008 Kawasaki KLR 650 (original owner, red now black, running)
1997 Honda Valkyrie (original owner, first year in black, running)
1975 Kawasaki H2 750 (original owner, purple, not running)

Richard230

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2018, 06:33:23 AM »
Quote from: BamBam on March 31, 2018, 05:08:52 AM
I had an FXS for about 9 months before some idiot slid on some ice and totaled it for me. I took delivery of a new 2017 DSR limited edition a few weeks. I read about these firmware upgrade issues and specifically told my dealer not to update the firmware when it came in. I have no idea what versions came from the factory.

My question is once a newer firmware version is loaded is there no way to revert back to an older version if we don't like the changes the newer version has made. It seems to me that that should be a pretty easy thing to do as long as the dealer still has the older version loaded in whatever tool they use to upload the firmware.

I think the dealer downloads the firmware directly from the Zero site via the internet, just like you can do at home if you own a 2017 or 2018 Zero and have the latest firmware.  So I doubt that they have access to any previous versions.   ???

Regarding the constant flood of Zero MMB and BMS firmware revisions, I get the feeling that they have several coders on staff that need to keep busy or they will end up on the bike production line or spare parts department - performing manual labor.   :o
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

JaimeC

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2018, 09:51:08 PM »
Most software upgrade processes check to see if you're trying to install a newer, same, or older version and prevent the latter two from happening.  If Zero's programmers determine that a current version is defective, I can't think of any technical reason why they couldn't change the date/revision indicator on the previous version of the software and make it available again.  Nothing would need to change EXCEPT that indicator field the software updater checks prior to installation.

Of course, the correct way for the software updater to work would be to prompt the technician with "This is an OLDER version than you have currently installed.  Are you SURE you wish to proceed?" and then just install it anyway if the technician indicates that's what he want's to do.

That's the way it would work if *I* coded the procedure, anyway.
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gborgan

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2018, 10:16:24 PM »
Quote from: JaimeC on March 31, 2018, 09:51:08 PM
Most software upgrade processes check to see if you're trying to install a newer, same, or older version and prevent the latter two from happening.  If Zero's programmers determine that a current version is defective, I can't think of any technical reason why they couldn't change the date/revision indicator on the previous version of the software and make it available again.  Nothing would need to change EXCEPT that indicator field the software updater checks prior to installation.

Of course, the correct way for the software updater to work would be to prompt the technician with "This is an OLDER version than you have currently installed.  Are you SURE you wish to proceed?" and then just install it anyway if the technician indicates that's what he want's to do.

That's the way it would work if *I* coded the procedure, anyway.

So, JaimeC (and others), where do things stand now? As for myself there has never been any solution. I even went in for a set of tires over a month ago and they had not heard anything from Zero on the whole Firmware issue discussed here. 

My 12.5 continues with its “new” ways; faster indicated usage, shorter estimated range, less performance. Another consistent change is its habit of “recovering” SOC after sitting.  After a 25 mile ride it showed 48%!.  Came out a few hours later and it was indicating 65%.  Never did that before the last Update.

As usual, it runs fine. No other troubles, but it operates differently now and I preferred it the original way.  It would seem no one has found a permanent solution. I liked the post about “select the number of bricks” but as mine has been reflashed twice, I think someone would have caught that mistake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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JaimeC

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2018, 05:03:05 AM »
At this stage I think we're ALL waiting for a proper solution from Zero.  :-\
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togo

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2018, 04:02:47 AM »
Quote from: JaimeC on April 01, 2018, 05:03:05 AM
At this stage I think we're ALL waiting for a proper solution from Zero.  :-\

Did you mean to post that on April Fools Day?

Was that mean of me to notice?

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AsherEscher

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2018, 06:54:39 AM »
In January, my two-brick 2016 FXS had a charger warranty-replaced and got the troublesome firmware update.

After a full charge, the state of charge dropped 30-40% faster than typical (not really like the n-1 bricks scenario). The last few charge cycles it seemed like it was starting to re-learn its capacity (e.g. last night it had gone 62 city miles and showed 27% left).

But this time I plugged it in, and this morning it read only 11% - but with the green charge-complete light on. Before, it always said "100%" even if I wasn't sure what 100 meant. Is this something other people have seen?

It is showing none of the symptoms like when the old charger died (charges on and off, blinking red light, crackly noises, error code 15). I tried a few times to download the battery logs, but it wouldn't stay connected for more than a minute or two.

Then I saw that the app says it's at 117V! Could it really be all charged up?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 07:26:23 AM by AsherEscher »
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AsherEscher

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Re: Odd charging behavior since the last software update
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2018, 10:16:47 PM »
I finally managed to get the bike logs. The battery logs look reasonable, but here's where the MBB lost its little mind. The PackSOC numbers go from 33% to 82% then 0% to 15%.
(BTW that ??? should be three question marks.)

  07480                       0   DEBUG: Reset: Power-On, External   
 07481                       0   Power On                   Onboard Charger
 07482                       0   Calex 720W Charger 0 Connected   
 07483                       0   Calex 1200W Charger 1 Connected   
 07484                       0   DEBUG: Module scheme changed from None mode to Charging mode   
 07485                       0   Module 00                  vmod: 0V, batt curr: 0A
 07486                       0   Module 01                  vmod: 0V, batt curr: 0A
 07487                       1   Sevcon Turned On   
 07488                       1   WARNING: Max allowed voltage difference is 500mV   
 07489                       1   Module 00 CAN Link Up   
 07490                       1   Module 00                  serial: 16sg2527,  vmod: 101.27V
 07491     05/16/2018 21:22:40   Module 01 CAN Link Up   
 07492     05/16/2018 21:22:40   Module 01                  serial: 16sg2533,  vmod: 101.324V
 07493     05/16/2018 21:23:53   Sevcon CAN Link Up   
 07494     05/16/2018 21:23:54   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive ON.   
 07495     05/16/2018 21:23:54   Module 00                  vmod: 101.259 maxsys: 101.383 minsys: 101.037 diff: 0.346 vcap: 89.937 prechg: 88%
 07496     05/16/2018 21:23:54   Module 01                  vmod: 101.319 maxsys: 101.383 minsys: 101.037 diff: 0.346 vcap: 89.937 prechg: 88%
 07497     05/16/2018 21:23:54   DEBUG: Module 01 Contactor is now Closed   
 07498     05/16/2018 21:23:54   INFO:  Enabling Calex 720W Charger 0   
 07499     05/16/2018 21:23:54   INFO:  Enabling Calex 1200W Charger 1   
 07500     05/16/2018 21:23:54   INFO:  Enabling External Chg 0 Charger 2   
 07501     05/16/2018 21:23:54   INFO:  Enabling External Chg 1 Charger 3   
 07502     05/16/2018 21:23:54   DEBUG: Module 00 Contactor is now Closed   
 07503     05/16/2018 21:23:58   0x31 0x01 0xb2 0x0c 0x3a ???   
 07504     05/16/2018 21:23:58   Low Chassis Isolation      11 KOhms to cell 12
 07505     05/16/2018 21:24:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 14C, l 14C, AmbTemp: 13C, PackSOC: 33%, Vpack:101.664V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07506     05/16/2018 21:34:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 14C, l 14C, AmbTemp: 15C, PackSOC: 32%, Vpack:102.201V, BattAmps:  -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07507     05/16/2018 21:44:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 15C, l 14C, AmbTemp: 17C, PackSOC: 31%, Vpack:102.425V, BattAmps:  -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07508     05/16/2018 21:54:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 15C, l 14C, AmbTemp: 19C, PackSOC: 31%, Vpack:102.623V, BattAmps:  -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07509     05/16/2018 22:04:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 15C, l 15C, AmbTemp: 20C, PackSOC: 32%, Vpack:102.796V, BattAmps:  -5, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07510     05/16/2018 22:14:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 16C, l 15C, AmbTemp: 21C, PackSOC: 34%, Vpack:103.003V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07511     05/16/2018 22:24:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 16C, l 15C, AmbTemp: 22C, PackSOC: 36%, Vpack:103.176V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07512     05/16/2018 22:34:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 16C, l 16C, AmbTemp: 22C, PackSOC: 38%, Vpack:103.408V, BattAmps:  -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07513     05/16/2018 22:44:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 17C, l 16C, AmbTemp: 23C, PackSOC: 41%, Vpack:103.382V, BattAmps:  -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07514     05/16/2018 22:54:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 17C, l 16C, AmbTemp: 23C, PackSOC: 44%, Vpack:103.666V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07515     05/16/2018 23:04:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 18C, l 16C, AmbTemp: 24C, PackSOC: 46%, Vpack:103.886V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07516     05/16/2018 23:14:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 18C, l 17C, AmbTemp: 24C, PackSOC: 49%, Vpack: 104.17V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07517     05/16/2018 23:24:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 19C, l 17C, AmbTemp: 24C, PackSOC: 51%, Vpack:104.559V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07518     05/16/2018 23:34:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 19C, l 17C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 54%, Vpack:104.872V, BattAmps:  -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07519     05/16/2018 23:44:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 20C, l 18C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 57%, Vpack:105.275V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07520     05/16/2018 23:54:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 20C, l 18C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 60%, Vpack:105.786V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07521     05/17/2018 00:04:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 20C, l 18C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 63%, Vpack:106.268V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07522     05/17/2018 00:14:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 21C, l 18C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 65%, Vpack:106.838V, BattAmps:  -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07523     05/17/2018 00:24:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 21C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 68%, Vpack:107.415V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07524     05/17/2018 00:34:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 21C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 71%, Vpack: 108.02V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07525     05/17/2018 00:44:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 21C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 73%, Vpack:108.582V, BattAmps:  -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07526     05/17/2018 00:54:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 22C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 75%, Vpack:109.067V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07527     05/17/2018 01:04:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 22C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 27C, PackSOC: 77%, Vpack:109.581V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07528     05/17/2018 01:14:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 22C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 24C, PackSOC: 79%, Vpack:110.009V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07529     05/17/2018 01:24:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 22C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 82%, Vpack:110.531V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07530     05/17/2018 01:34:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 22C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC:  0%, Vpack: 111.08V, BattAmps:  -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07531     05/17/2018 01:44:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 22C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC:  1%, Vpack:111.488V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07532     05/17/2018 01:54:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 22C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC:  3%, Vpack: 112.07V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07533     05/17/2018 02:04:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 22C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC:  5%, Vpack:112.669V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07534     05/17/2018 02:14:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC:  7%, Vpack:113.171V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07535     05/17/2018 02:24:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC:  8%, Vpack:113.744V, BattAmps:  -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07536     05/17/2018 02:34:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 12%, Vpack:114.228V, BattAmps:  -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07537     05/17/2018 02:44:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 28C, PackSOC: 15%, Vpack:114.676V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07538     05/17/2018 02:54:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 27C, PackSOC: 15%, Vpack:115.434V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07539     05/17/2018 03:04:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 28C, PackSOC: 15%, Vpack:115.951V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07540     05/17/2018 03:14:01   Charging                   PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 28C, PackSOC: 15%, Vpack:116.628V, BattAmps:  -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 07541     05/17/2018 03:19:25   Entering Charge Standby Mode   
 07542     05/17/2018 03:19:25   INFO:  Disabling Calex 720W Charger 0   
 07543     05/17/2018 03:19:25   INFO:  Disabling Calex 1200W Charger 1   
 07544     05/17/2018 03:19:25   INFO:  Disabling External Chg 0 Charger 2   
 07545     05/17/2018 03:19:25   INFO:  Disabling External Chg 1 Charger 3   
 07546     05/17/2018 03:19:30   Module 00                  vmod: 116.695V, batt curr: 0A
 07547     05/17/2018 03:19:30   Module 01                  vmod: 116.624V, batt curr: 0A
 07548     05/17/2018 03:19:30   Sevcon Turned Off   
 07549     05/17/2018 03:19:30   DEBUG: Module 01 Contactor is now Open   
 07550     05/17/2018 03:19:30   DEBUG: Module 00 Contactor is now Open   
 07551     05/17/2018 09:08:03   Calex 720W Charger 0 Disconnected   
 07552     05/17/2018 09:08:03   Calex 1200W Charger 1 Disconnected   
 07553     05/17/2018 09:08:03   Leaving Charge Standby Mode   
 07554     05/17/2018 09:08:03   Power Off                  Onboard Charger
 07555     05/17/2018 09:08:03   Module 00                  vmod: 115.86V, batt curr: 0A
 07556     05/17/2018 09:08:03   Module 01                  vmod: 115.947V, batt curr: 0A
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 10:27:29 PM by AsherEscher »
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