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Author Topic: Zero vs Energica  (Read 6921 times)

Hansi

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Zero vs Energica
« on: November 07, 2019, 12:01:07 PM »

Energica has released their new battery pack which I think is awesome and an electric motorcycle gamechanger and probably enough for most people when they also have DC charging. What are your thoughts on Zero vs Energica?
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DonTom

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2019, 01:05:58 PM »

Energica has released their new battery pack which I think is awesome and an electric motorcycle gamechanger and probably enough for most people when they also have DC charging. What are your thoughts on Zero vs Energica?
Read some of the latest messages in the Energica section, such as this one, Reply #43 on: Today at 23:04:00.

I have a couple of Zeros and an Energica. IMO,  they don't compare well. IMO, Zeros are better for local stuff and I find the Energica better for the freeways and longer trips. The Energica is heavy, but very stable, has a reverse, MUCH faster charging (26KW). Feels more like a real motorcycle than the Zeros. And MUCH more comfy.

I am comparing to my Zeros, not the SR/F.  I did do a test ride on the SR/F.  It performs well, but I find it as being one of the most uncomfortable bikes I have been on, other than the seat was better than the other Zeros. But I wasn't on it long enough to say for sure.

-Don-  Reno, NV
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2019, 01:16:15 PM »

First and foremost, because this was posted to the Zero sub-forum, I consider this post attention-seeking and inappropriate. I wish Energica enthusiasts wouldn't take up space on Zero forums "negging" on the bikes. They can co-exist just fine serving different parts of the market.

Energica certainly has achieved something (at least on paper) if they ship bikes with 21kWh of battery capacity. But their battery warranty is lackluster. 31,000 miles and 3 years is not a respectable number for a battery warranty for a practical motorcycle, because motorcycle powertrain batteries are incredibly expensive, and absolutely not serviceable. I'm not investing in EVs that turn into landfill before they pay off, or in EVs that might need $10,000 battery replacements every few years. The fast charging seems to play into that warranty limitation, but you don't get a longer warranty if you don't fast charge.

In short, I don't think Energica's battery is a gamechanger. Capacity is not the only number to consider in a battery, and there are likely some tradeoffs involved in what they've accomplished.

Energica makes a bike that has extra equipment for high performance riding. If you don't value track performance, the extra mass and maintenance complication of a gearbox (or chain and gear sprockets, coolant, etc) are a liability instead of an asset. I don't care how well it handles - 600lbs of motorcycle is not desirable. It's definitely a liability if you drop it, and less efficient as a vehicle without the rider finessing efficiency more mindfully.

Energica also doesn't offer hard luggage mounts, hard luggage, or a top case solution. That's a deal-breaker for me, as I've discussed before. I would not put my girlfriend on the back of this motorcycle. Energica makes an "ego" (selfish) motorcycle. Energica gives off Northern Italian race culture snobbery and their designs don't deny this.

I've logged about 66,000 miles on two Zero models, and aside from the lack of CCS charging, 20kWh, and a standard fairing/cockpit mounting structure, is much easier to deal with. They're also quieter, more relaxing, and easier to modify. The SR/F platform should address a great deal of issues with their models, and I've spent a lot of time documenting the bike (zeromanual.com) in ways I don't feel welcome doing around Energica. It's true that if there weren't the SR/F, Zero would inspire less confidence. But it does exist and is impressive for having improved on a number of levels.

Energica is focused on the track, and Zero is focused on the daily rider. The latter seems more likely to produce a useful motorcycle that can scale in sales and production.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 01:18:31 PM by BrianTRice »
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Hans2183

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2019, 02:37:19 PM »

I have the zero SR/F. I tested the other Zero models and went for the SR/F because of power and traction control.

So far I didn't test ride any Energica yet. I will probably do so in the near feature just to know what I'm missing.

I skipped Energica because at the time they had the same capacity but:

- more expensive (prices on the website are VAT exclusive here)
- chain drive instead of belt drive
- warranty limited in miles (I would reach that within 1 year of use)
- didn't like the design of Eva as much (and Ego is nice but less ergonomic for longer rides)
- extra maintenance cost of oil/liquid cooling system & gearbox
- extra weight (zero is at just over 220kg, even the latest energica is still 270kg)

Their 20kWh battery and fast charging are awesome. On a zero both are impossible for the moment. You can go to +/- 12kW charging OR a total of +/- 18kWh but not both.
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MrBlc

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2019, 06:49:11 PM »

Too bad Energica  lost their dealernetwork in .no when Carpoint lost their deal with Zero and decided to stop..
I wouldn't mind demoing Energica, but not having places to buy parts and perform service is a no go for me at least.
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MBldc

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2019, 08:00:08 PM »

First and foremost, because this was posted to the Zero sub-forum, I consider this post attention-seeking and inappropriate. I wish Energica enthusiasts wouldn't take up space on Zero forums "negging" on the bikes. They can co-exist just fine serving different parts of the market.
Energica is focused on the track, and Zero is focused on the daily rider. The latter seems more likely to produce a useful motorcycle that can scale in sales and production.

I appreciate this community and especially the open mind-set. So why is that first post inappropriate? It is just a valid Idea of a comparison and food for thought in my opinion.
 
For me it looks a little different. Energicas main disadvantage was and still is its huge price. Besides that, it seemed to be an extremly powerful and high quality bike above Zeros lineup for several years, until Zero finally matched it with the SR/F. But many people complain, that the SR/F still does not have the capacity (~20KWh) and practical useable charge speed (=ccs) it would need to be Travel- and Autobahn-proof.

For me that is not an issue, because my SR/F's use-case is perfectly covered. I am a daily commuter, but most bikers here in europe make long bike trips or drive day-tours as a hobby.

Technical Solutions that our Zero features (Belt, no gearbox, passive cooling) are interesting and make it unique, but they are not always better or more robust, as sometimes claimed. Liquid cooling for example is inevitable at a certain perfomance level (drivetrain and battery, if cold weather performance is needed) - take a look at the EV-Cages. The maintanance it takes, is minimal.
Chains need a bit more care, but they are extremly reliable and efficient.

All in All Energica more likely shows the way the big OEM will follow, in my opinion.

Nevertheless Zero is extremly innovative and hopefully will keep up with upcoming competition!

Best regards,

Marco
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JaimeC

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2019, 08:20:47 PM »

I liken it to the difference between a Subaru and a McLaren.  Sure, the McLaren looks more desirable on paper BUT it won't get you to the office any faster than the Subaru, and you'll never fit a week's worth of groceries for a family of four in that thing...
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BigPoppa

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2019, 09:15:43 PM »

I didn't find anything offensive about the OP's post. Whether it was posted here or in the Energica forum, I took it as someone looking for information on the two main options for electric motorcycles. When I was trying to decide which bike to buy, I sought out comparisons as much as possible, it helps a potential buyer to make an informed decision.

As others have said, which bike you go with (SR/F or Energica...probably the EsseEsse9) is really dependent on your needs. I had an SR/F on order precisely for the air cooling and belt drive but after test riding an SR, DSR, SR/F, Eva 107, and EsseEsse9 I decided the riding position and heavier weight of the EsseEsse9 made it a better choice for me and my needs. The chain maintenance isn't a big deal (I'm just lazy, that's why I was looking at the belt driven SR/F) and the fluid changes are on par with my big American twins...again nothing extreme and relatively minor.

After commuting (including lane splitting here in California) on a Victory Cross Country Tour and a Triumph Trophy, the weight of the Energica didn't bother me and I found it more comfortable for the higher speed freeway portions of my commute. The SR/F was the only Zero that I felt comfortable at the "extra-legal" speeds I tend to ride at. As solid as they were, the SR and DSR felt too much like bicycles on steroids.

Since I don't intend on ever modifying the powertrain or motor of my electric motorcycle, that capability never factored into my decision. Even the fast charging on the Energica didn't factor into my buying decision. I've only used it about 3 times now and while I'm glad I have it, I wouldn't miss it if I didn't have it.

To the OP...you really have to go test ride both brands and then decide, factoring in your personal riding needs.
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Richard230

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2019, 09:41:45 PM »

My general comment is that, while the Energica and SR/F models are really wonderful and full of new and interesting technology, the market really needs lower priced electric motorcycles that will introduce new riders to electric power.  Something simple, cheap and reliable, that is functional and fun to ride to convince young people on a budget that EVs are perfect for their local transportation needs.  Once they are convinced that riding an EV is fun and inexpensive, then they might very well start looking at and wanting to invest in, a more expensive and capable model.  Or like my two granddaughters, never try riding motorcycles or driving a car and take the bus.   :(
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BamBam

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2019, 10:24:38 PM »

I own a 2017 DSR and one of the things I don't quite get is some of the comments I've read on this forum and in reviews of the SR/F, which seem to suggest that anything other than the SR/F in Zero's lineup is less than a complete motorcycle.  Comments like "the SR/F feels likes it's made from a whole cloth", as if the other Zero models are just cobbled together afterthoughts.  And comments like in this post that "the DSR felt too much like a bicycle on steroids", really?

I also ride a 1997 Honda Valkyrie so I'm used to riding big bikes.  I owned a Zero FXS and now a DSR and nothing about them makes me think these are somehow less than real, legitimate motorcycles.  I use my DSR mostly for everyday commuting on city/county roads, but I also occasionally take in on the highway and I have complete confidence in it on the highway.

If your looking for a big long distance cruiser in an electric motorcycle then of course you are going to be disappointed.  That's not the niche that these bikes are designed for.  In that case save yourself some money and buy an ICE bike.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 10:38:22 PM by BamBam »
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JaimeC

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2019, 10:36:06 PM »

What HE said!! ^^^
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BigPoppa

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2019, 10:46:08 PM »

I stand by my comments. For me, the SR and DSR didn't feel like "motorcycles". While you may feel different, that's my impression riding those bikes when compared to the SR/F and Energicas. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, I'm saying that's my impression of the bikes.

I don't believe anyone in this thread said they were looking for an electric to function as a big touring bike. I only referenced the Victory and Triumph to point out that the weight of the Energicas didn't bother me like it bothers some riders.

The OP asked for thoughts and I provided them.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 10:49:56 PM by BigPoppa »
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NEW2elec

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2019, 10:57:29 PM »

+1 Old Zeros are still great fun bikes.
I think some guys really want that wider rear tire and feel if it's not there it's a lesser bike.  To each their own.

I feel the Energicas are very much the Ferrari of the EMC world and the Zeros fall into the Camaro (SR) and Corvette (SRF) lines.  Cheaper and easier to work on but not quite top specs.

I agree the battery warranty has always been a bit of a red flag for me.  There are just a few guys on here with Energicas (though growing) so it's hard to know the long term reliability as most haven't been through 4-5 years of use yet.  Makes the used market a bit scary.

The fast charging is great on paper but the stations just aren't out there (outside of CA) and they cost more then gas at this point.

But the biggest deal breaker at this point is just so few dealers.  I'm about 8 hours away from one and in the big picture that's pretty close.
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shayan

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2019, 12:04:43 AM »

I come to owning a Victory Empulse TT to a 2018 Zero S. I was indeed a feeling I might be downgrading as the Empulse has some great components and handling as a motorcycle. Sport mode first gear acceleration s were great. But I couldn't be more wrong. I went out on a couple of rides or more already and I don't feel anything less. It's even easier to handle because of its lower weight. And the minimalism makes it awesome in every way.

For a context I'm a 140lbs 5'10" guy. So that kind of context also counts for the choice. I really can't possibly handle a 560lbs+ bike, if at all I drop it or so. Used to find it difficult to move the Empulse. Reverse doesn't help with that either 🙂
Also if ur not into really frequent long road trips, DC fast charge may not be as necessary.

Also as for the power and torque figures, Zero S is like a 500cc bike and plenty enough for more than 90% of the needs.

-Shayan
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Crissa

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Re: Zero vs Energica
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2019, 08:26:52 AM »

'On paper' and 'I have experience on a big bike'.

The Energicas are as big and heavy as our old shaft-drive Honda CB Custom.  And I did not like pushing that thing!  I drove it in a circle once, and that was enough.

I couldn't imagine trying to handle that through the mountains here.  My S is often too much ^-^

But there's places and uses for different size bikes.  I like that Energica and Zero have different takes on how to get there.  There's like, axis here:  Road capability, speed capability, and the more of both you add, the bigger the bike gets, which is important to the rider.

And all those capabilities come with costs.  Every additional component is more weight, even if it adds more capacity.  And more cost!

And that's just the practical aspect before looking at ergonomics.

I might drool at an Energica (and would have before I started riding motorcycles.  They're good looking bikes!) but it's like looking at a sports car or race car.  They're awesome, but I neither can drive nor should drive one.  Let alone afford it.  Although they're at least not the price of an Exotic or Taycan!

-Crissa
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